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D-Bug & Automation Forum >> ST/STE/MSTE/Falcon/TT Patches >> Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
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Message started by CJ on 04.01.10 at 06:08:54

Title: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 04.01.10 at 06:08:54
According to this notable expert ULS has no pre-cache option....

Which is odd, because I'm sure that the "ramdisk" flag is basically a pre-cache routine. In fact, as I wrote it, yes it is :P

Pretty much everything he's written on that thread is, as usual, a load of festering bollocks. Hey ho :-)

I'd love to comment in that thread, but unfortunatly those Amiga people have taken over 2 days to validate my account (and still waiting) - however if Mr Troll has moved to the slanty-A machine then they are more than welcome to him and so-long and good riddance for us :)  Hey, we'll even do a prisoner exchange and take Doomaster off their hands if they promise to keep Mr Troll.


Quote:
Caching feature in WHDLoad is nice and useful feature. However, considering ULS, I don't see that it has it. I tried couple latest patches, like Armour-Geddon - and there says that uses Ramdisk because otherwise would be slow. Then Jim Power - if deactivate Ramdisk it loads much slower.


Well, firstly - his Armor Geddon doesn't even fucking work so he's got a mental problem for bashing mine and secondly Jim Power is on CD200, and doesn't use ULS you freaking retard and has RAMdisk forced on so you can't deactivate it! But thanks for downloading the CD you freak.


Quote:
I didn't look in sources about, and honestly don't care, but all mentioned says that no cashing there.


From the ULS docs:

Function: uls_update_rdsk
Allows the ULS ramdisk to be updated (append mode) or repopulated (replace mode)

Call with:
D0.L: 4 char ASCII of initial dir for RAMdisk
D1.W: Update Mode Flag
A0.L: Pointer to a filespec for Ramdisk


Call D0.L/A0.L
D0.L and A0.L are the same as required by D6.L and A5.L respectivly for the uls_init function

Call D1.W: Update Mode Flag
Set D1=-1 (negative) and the existing RAMdisk will be completely replaced with the new data.
Set D1=+1 (positive) and the existing RAMdisk will be appended. This is requires for multi directory games if you wish to cache both directories at setup time, as only one path can be specified in uls_init for ramdisk creation.
Note: The updated RAMdisk *MUST* fit inside the parameters specified in uls_init.


Is that not caching? Are you FUCKING RETARDED OR SOMETHING???? - I think we all know the answer to this one. Stop trying to take credit for other people's work yet again by re-inventing the wheel. Or better yet, show us the source code to your wonderful GAYEX system.... oh, you can't beacuse then we'd all see how much of ULS you ripped! (and fucked up in the process)

As usual, brains in the anal department.


Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by ggn on 04.01.10 at 07:52:47
Actually, creating the ramdisk feature was one of the first features we added to ULS, because the first experiment (aka F1GP) loaded quite slowly.

And, the option to turn it on/off of course exists because we don't want to increase the total memory footprint required. Contrary to what that fucktard says, most games do work with 1mb, but like WHDload when it gets tight in memory, loading will suffer a bit. Still it's more convenient than loading from floppy, right?

In conclusion, another one of Mr. Partition Wiper's FUD campaigns against us faces the cold hard facts and falls dead on its tracks :).

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Saviour on 05.01.10 at 00:26:00
I really love that one:

Quote:
Of course, most has no enough knowledge, but main problem is that people which does adaptations (patches) are not cooperative, actually some are much worse.

LOL, like: I take all the credit for your code and you still don´t like me! You´re so mean! :D

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 05.01.10 at 00:39:26
He's right tho. He's the only one who does "adaptations" and he isn't co-operative or have enough knowledge.

I'd love to know how he can justify that statement when we've produced the ULS code over 4+ years of hard work and testing, and then given it away freely to the community, with full source code, documentation and continued support with constant updates while all his stuff is closed source, buggy, consistantly bad crap.

ULS is now every bit as mature, stable and feature rich as WHDload on the Amiga (which is a fantastic piece of code, btw) and it has proven itself time and time again as a rock solid platform for producing Falcon/HD fixed games, and is being used by more people than just us (Hi Klaz, Hi Phill from Fairlight!)

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Klapauzius on 05.01.10 at 14:34:45
Well, the most interesting question for me is:
how long will it take until he gets banned from EAB as well?  :P

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Shw on 05.01.10 at 19:29:32
oh he's on EAB.. so am I ..
lets see!

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 06.01.10 at 04:08:29

Klapauzius wrote on 05.01.10 at 14:34:45:
Well, the most interesting question for me is:
how long will it take until he gets banned from EAB as well?  :P


Soon as he replies to me I'd guess :)

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Phill on 06.01.10 at 11:02:35
Chaps, can you come and get your lamer back?  You've left him on EAB! ;)

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Christos on 06.01.10 at 18:25:39
Sorry, he is our "gift" to the amiga community, a thank you for all those years of rivalry! It will be impolite of you to send it back! ;)

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Phill on 06.01.10 at 18:38:37

Christos wrote on 06.01.10 at 18:25:39:
Sorry, he is our "gift" to the amiga community, a thank you for all those years of rivalry! It will be impolite of you to send it back! ;)


Have you still got the receipt?  As far as 'gifts' go, this one sucks balls!  :-X

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Christos on 06.01.10 at 18:45:58
Right. Well, I wouldn't worry too much. According to Greek folklore troll season ends really soon so he'll be gone. :D

Anyway, I just wish we could send him over to the jaguar scene. He'll be a perfect match.

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Phill on 06.01.10 at 18:52:12

Christos wrote on 06.01.10 at 18:45:58:
Right. Well, I wouldn't worry too much. According to Greek folklore troll season ends really soon so he'll be gone. :D

Anyway, I just wish we could send him over to the jaguar scene. He'll be a perfect match.


He's been plauging you lot for years, just how long does a Troll season go on for?

i'm not too concerned, the backlash has begun on EAB, so I think it won't be long before he volunteers himself a hiatus to bother someone else.

He's asking some really stupid questions frankly.  How does him learning about partitions on Amiga help him to code his own ULS / WHDLoad style system?

I would have thought that by analysing Atari ST stuff would be the way to go, but it appears i'm very much mistaken in the belief that if you're going to code for a specific machine, learning about that machine is the way to go?!?!

Silly me!  ;D

Don't worry chaps, we won't wear him out too much, we know you want him back... though I doubt he will be in pristine condition ;)

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 06.01.10 at 20:55:29
T'was the season of giving. We gave :)
It's not the season of giving anymore, you can't hand him back!

Shame there's no reciept, it's obviously damaged goods LOL.

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Phill on 06.01.10 at 20:58:39

CJ wrote on 06.01.10 at 20:55:29:
T'was the season of giving. We gave :)
It's not the season of giving anymore, you can't hand him back!

Shame there's no reciept, it's obviously damaged goods LOL.


Season of giving?  Did that include sexually transmitted diseases as well?

Some bloody season that was! :)

Seriously though, he's pissing us off, the jokes over, its no longer funny, we have standards don't you know... and your 'gift' falls way below that.

Damn it, we'll PAY for you to take him back!  ;D


Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 06.01.10 at 22:15:42
All our guru's are meditating. If you are not fully satisfied with your seasonal gift, please deposit it in the nearest bin ;-)

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 06.01.10 at 22:17:13
Seriously, though, can't we team up and package him off to an x68000 or Sega Geneis forum? :)

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Phill on 06.01.10 at 22:35:09

CJ wrote on 06.01.10 at 22:17:13:
Seriously, though, can't we team up and package him off to an x68000 or Sega Geneis forum? :)


Hmmmm....... How about an Atari forum... this one?  Looks like it needs livening up in the worst way possible!!!!  ;D

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 06.01.10 at 22:43:38
he's always welcome here :) We love discussing things with him :P

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Christos on 07.01.10 at 00:40:46
Reminder: The Atari Jaguar has a 68000 too! They also need a HD solution!

(Something that will require 56000 solder points)....

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Heavy Stylus on 07.01.10 at 09:10:19
Pperror is such an ass.  No one in the atari community wants to talk with him, so off he runs to the Amiga scene - to talk about his buggy and rather pointless Atari stuff!  Why does he bother?!

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Klapauzius on 07.01.10 at 10:03:33
Oh dear, now he's sent me an e-mail, saying he wants to talk....
Seems he's a very lonely guy.  ::)

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Jake-Depression on 07.01.10 at 10:39:22

Klapauzius wrote on 07.01.10 at 10:03:33:
Oh dear, now he's sent me an e-mail, saying he wants to talk....
Seems he's a very lonely guy.  ::)


Mayby he try found some users for his "better than other programs - program"?

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 07.01.10 at 11:36:11
Send back a fake "No user with that name found at this address" email :P

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by StingRay_ on 07.01.10 at 15:41:27

Heavy Stylus wrote on 07.01.10 at 09:10:19:
No one in the atari community wants to talk with him, so off he runs to the Amiga scene - to talk about his buggy and rather pointless Atari stuff!  Why does he bother?!


Because stupid little ppera is craving for attention. :) What an easy question that was. :D *runs away and giggles like a 13 year old schoolgirl* :P

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 07.01.10 at 23:18:47
Aww they locked the thread. If he comes back to Atari-land you realise we will take the rejection of the gift as an Act of War?

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Phill on 08.01.10 at 00:11:01
I opened a new one in OFF TOPIC to respond to his silly Amiga related guff.

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 08.01.10 at 02:02:58
Ah-ha! So you ARE keeping the pressie! Good man!

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 08.01.10 at 05:13:11
http://ppera.07x.net/atari/imgrun.php

Check the backdrop :P

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 08.01.10 at 10:13:24
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=50062

Grahams. No sense of humour :P Don't make me invoke Goodwin's!!!!! lol :)

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Shw on 08.01.10 at 10:59:55
"Graham's" lack as sense of humour?! as if! :)

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Phill on 08.01.10 at 12:02:09
Graham is starting to piss people off now.

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 08.01.10 at 12:18:54
Heh you have an Amiga version of MugUK as well!

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Phill on 08.01.10 at 12:26:27

CJ wrote on 08.01.10 at 12:18:54:
Heh you have an Amiga version of MugUK as well!


Haha, no but its getting beyond a joke now, so a message is going to be sent to Admin to get it sorted out.

Its not on for someone to cause problems, write a load of guff and then deny people the right to respond, its just not on.

In answer to your question on saving, WHDLoad was ammended several years ago (on my request).

If you have the memory to preload everything, then it will save any save games or hiscores to ram, and then when you quit back to dos, then it will save the relevant data.

So obviously in game, if you save lots of times, the saves will still be done properly.

If you have a low mem system, it will OS swap and save at the time, not after the game has quit, and this is also how it used to work even if you had enough memory, but OS swapping looks daft on a machine with enough memory, so it was changed.

It doesn't take long to save, its merely a second, depending on the size of file to save (Championship Manager 2 is 2x 1meg save files!!!), but obviously as its doing the OS swap, the screen is switched off, and any music is stopped from playing as it restores all the interrupts back to their original OS settings, does the save, and then swaps back again.

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 08.01.10 at 12:35:20
This is the bit I dont get with WHDload:


Quote:
It doesn't take long to save, its merely a second, depending on the size of file to save (Championship Manager 2 is 2x 1meg save files!!!), but obviously as its doing the OS swap, the screen is switched off, and any music is stopped from playing as it restores all the interrupts back to their original OS settings, does the save, and then swaps back again.


If you have to disable/restore the OS - *why* can't it support savestates?  Sting tried to explain it but it all sounded like guff :)

As for locking that thread, I thought we were having a nice polite discussion. Oh well, no fear of locking it here :)

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Klapauzius on 08.01.10 at 12:54:57

Phill wrote on 08.01.10 at 12:26:27:
... but obviously as its doing the OS swap, the screen is switched off, and any music is stopped from playing as it restores all the interrupts back to their original OS settings, does the save, and then swaps back again.


You could use a screen buffer in OS mem and copy the game screen content to keep the screen at least, couldn't you? That's the way we ULSer are doing it anyway.  :)

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Shw on 08.01.10 at 14:53:28
he's even locked the "off topic" one!! how bizarre!

Shw

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Phill on 08.01.10 at 15:53:39

CJ wrote on 08.01.10 at 12:35:20:
This is the bit I dont get with WHDload:


Quote:
It doesn't take long to save, its merely a second, depending on the size of file to save (Championship Manager 2 is 2x 1meg save files!!!), but obviously as its doing the OS swap, the screen is switched off, and any music is stopped from playing as it restores all the interrupts back to their original OS settings, does the save, and then swaps back again.


If you have to disable/restore the OS - *why* can't it support savestates?  Sting tried to explain it but it all sounded like guff :)

As for locking that thread, I thought we were having a nice polite discussion. Oh well, no fear of locking it here :)


In theory it is possible, because Action Replay cartridge can do a save state, though it is worth mentioning it doesn't work 100% on all games.

Its a hell of a lot of work to get an accurate save state, for one because of all the read only custom registers, not everyone has an MMU.  Secondly, because of the amount of co-processors, you would need to be able to capture them  in the same state, which if the blitter is part way through a blit is going to cause problems, because of course the blitter can be used to do many things other than moving data, it can also be used to decode the trackbuffer when reading disks.

Its a lot of work when you consider that most Amiga games had saves in them, so its always been easier to just cater for those.

I know Wepl the author of WHDLoad has thought about doing it, but its a hell of a lot of work.

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by TechnoLurker on 08.01.10 at 17:46:36
The off-topic topic at EAB wasn't even insulting.  Just seemed to me to be more informative than anything.

*shrugs*

Oh, well.

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 08.01.10 at 21:58:12

Phill wrote on 08.01.10 at 15:53:39:
Secondly, because of the amount of co-processors, you would need to be able to capture themin the same state, which if the blitter is part way through a blit is going to cause problems, because of course the blitter can be used to do many things other than moving data, it can also be used to decode the trackbuffer when reading disks.


From the start of the ULS core....

[code]
.blitwait
     btst.b #7,$ffff8a3c.w            ; wait if blitter is busy
     bne.s .blitwait                  
[/code]

At this point all interupts are off and ULS is in complete control of the system. I'd assume there has to be a point in the WHD code where something similar can be done.

See, it's not complicated :)

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Phill on 08.01.10 at 23:33:44

CJ wrote on 08.01.10 at 21:58:12:

Phill wrote on 08.01.10 at 15:53:39:
Secondly, because of the amount of co-processors, you would need to be able to capture themin the same state, which if the blitter is part way through a blit is going to cause problems, because of course the blitter can be used to do many things other than moving data, it can also be used to decode the trackbuffer when reading disks.


From the start of the ULS core....

[code]
.blitwait
     btst.b #7,$ffff8a3c.w            ; wait if blitter is busy
     bne.s .blitwait                  
[/code]

At this point all interupts are off and ULS is in complete control of the system. I'd assume there has to be a point in the WHD code where something similar can be done.

See, it's not complicated :)


Yes Amiga has a blitwait function, but if the blitter is kept constantly busy because the game hasn't used blitwaits and just runs blits concurrently one after another, waiting for the blitter to finish might never occur.

Also its possible and some programmers do use the blitter from the copperlist, which can then cause problems restoring as you'd need to restart that copperlist, and it could be a dynamic one that is constantly being altered which will again cause problems.

But thats all childs play compared to having access to read only custom registers and restoring them.  Action Replay got by this because of its Zorro access to the memory bus so it could intercept and monitor writes to custom registers and memory, all Amigas would need an MMU to do a proper 100% accurate save state.

it would be possible I suppose for someone to to a software version that assumes certain custom registers would get their proper values restored by the game and hardware once the game gets up and running, but theres no guarantee of that.

Its just a little more complicated on Amiga, otherwise it would have been successfully integrated already ;)

Its not as if the Amiga lacks the talent ;)

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 09.01.10 at 00:50:22
heheh you guys are always playing catchup :P

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 09.01.10 at 00:55:53

Phill wrote on 08.01.10 at 23:33:44:
waiting for the blitter to finish might never occur.


If all interupts are off, and the cpu is in your code, how is it possible for it not to finish?

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Phill on 09.01.10 at 03:28:53

CJ wrote on 09.01.10 at 00:55:53:

Phill wrote on 08.01.10 at 23:33:44:
waiting for the blitter to finish might never occur.


If all interupts are off, and the cpu is in your code, how is it possible for it not to finish?


Irrelevant.  You need to know the blitter has finished, so that when you restore the game after saving it, everything is where it should be.

Lack of blitwaits in Amiga games is not an unusual case.

And as far as I can remember, halting the interrupts doesn't halt the blitter, once the blitsize is moved into $dff058, only the blitter finishing its blit will stop it.

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 09.01.10 at 04:50:52
Exactly.

So if all ints are off, and you have the CPU... if you wait for the current blit to finish... how can you possibly be in the middle of another blit operation when you state save?  There's no way to "re-start" the blitter at that point.

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Phill on 09.01.10 at 12:46:17

CJ wrote on 09.01.10 at 04:50:52:
Exactly.

So if all ints are off, and you have the CPU... if you wait for the current blit to finish... how can you possibly be in the middle of another blit operation when you state save?  There's no way to "re-start" the blitter at that point.


Like I said, thats all moot as writing back to read only custom registers is the problem.  Not every Amiga had an MMU, and not all processor cards have an MMU, so save state is a lot of effort for not many people.

Sure, its a nifty feature, but as most Amiga games have a save feature anyway, its really not worth the effort.

I'm certainly not interested in having to do additional fixes just to ensure a certain game will save state properly.

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 09.01.10 at 12:57:39
http://p_p_e_r_a.07x.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=67

Aww look, you made a new friend :)

(remove the _ from the domain name)

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 09.01.10 at 13:03:54

Quote:
D-Bug invented nothing - they ported WHDLoad concept on Atari. They made no any supporting util SW at all. Even can not write some GUI, GEM program, and they are 4-6 or whatever people.


LOL.

Yes I just loaded WHDload into GenST and hit "assemble" - it was *that* easy.

There's no "supporting software" because unlike his shite, we don't need any!

We dont need a GUI you prat. Its all click and play. Unlike your bodgy click and prey system :P


Quote:
They hate me because I don't respect so called 'established sceners'. That's again bullshit. I don't care about establishmment.


Doesn't that contradict itself?  It's also (again) inaccurate. We hate him because he's a talentless cunt. A bit like the Jeremy Beadle of the ST world :)

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Phill on 09.01.10 at 13:56:27

CJ wrote on 09.01.10 at 12:57:39:
http://p_p_e_r_a.07x.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=67

Aww look, you made a new friend :)

(remove the _ from the domain name)


Fvcking coward!  The guy is a first class fvcking moron!

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 09.01.10 at 14:02:57
Shall I start a "Hurl a random insult at the talentless cunt troll fvucking moron codestealing weasel mental nutjob idiot" thread? :)

I think we can even put Amenos in there as well.

We have to (grudgingly) give him bonus credit for picking on MugUK tho :)

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Christos on 09.01.10 at 14:21:51
@Anemos, since he'll obviously read that :D

Feel free to say anything you want about me. I couldn't care less!

BTW, why does ppera have a forum?? A blog is more than enough for his needs.

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 09.01.10 at 14:23:56
But neither of them will be big enough to come and post here, where they know their lies and stupidity will take a soul crushing battering :)

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 09.01.10 at 14:26:57
BTW @anemos

If you'd care to give us your IP I can easily block you from downloading from us. After all, your wonderful chum Mr Buggyboy Troll does everything for you now, you have no need for us.

I guess your too dumbfucked in the head to know most of his games don't actually work. Either that, or you are a super intelligent shade of the colour blue and can complete Armor Geddon in under two minutes (despite the fact that 400k of game data is missing)

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Christos on 09.01.10 at 14:26:57
Right.. I am pretty confident pperror must have an account. We couldn't possibly have found and delete all of them.



Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Phill on 09.01.10 at 14:30:05
His account on EAB has now been deleted.

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by banditos on 09.01.10 at 20:23:43
i guess Anemos and pperror is the same person. same english writtning errors:)

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Phill on 09.01.10 at 20:35:17
The original thread on EAB has now been deleted, so Pperror has nothing to link to.

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Saviour on 10.01.10 at 03:24:32
Shame on you D-Bug! ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7EBQuCEeIs

This guy can never stop trolling...

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 10.01.10 at 06:13:14
The YouTube servers would run out of space if we uploaded all the vids of his fucked up stuff :)

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Christos on 10.01.10 at 09:31:14
Right, that was his STE though, that who knows what he's done to it.

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Phill on 10.01.10 at 12:22:42
Seriously boys, fucking annihilate the prick on YouTube, this dick needs taking down!

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by ggn on 10.01.10 at 15:57:12
Well, I already announced that I'd fix HS, it just slipped my mind :)

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 10.01.10 at 20:37:44
Exactly... he's made a video about something we'd been 100% honest about but not got around to fixing yet....

...whilst still pretending his Armor Geddon and Battle for Britain and everythign else he's butchered are all ok ROFL.

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by StingRay_ on 11.01.10 at 10:31:43

CJ wrote on 08.01.10 at 12:35:20:

If you have to disable/restore the OS - *why* can't it support savestates?  Sting tried to explain it but it all sounded like guff :)


Thanks... Next time I guess I won't spend time explaining that again... Read only custom registers... Anyway, that's all that needs to be said about that.

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Heavy Stylus on 11.01.10 at 11:26:54
Wow.  I missed the death of this EAB thread, and the one that followed it.  Must of got serious for it to be completely deleted!

Does anyone have a copy of what happened after I posted?  Or can someone fill me in with how Pppppwanker replied to my (pretty reasonable IIRC) posts?

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Shw on 11.01.10 at 12:00:26
what they've deleted it!!!

not just locked it?

shw

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Heavy Stylus on 11.01.10 at 12:03:02
I know!  Does MugUK have an amiga alterego?

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Phill on 11.01.10 at 12:21:59

Shw wrote on 11.01.10 at 12:00:26:
what they've deleted it!!!

not just locked it?

shw


I asked for it to be deleted, because the prick was linking to it from his site and lording it over people.  Of course, by him requesting the mods lock the thread, meant that a few people couldn't get in legitimate replies to rubbish his claims.

So rather that thread full of bollocks be allowed to stand, I asked for it to dissapear, no Pperror only has an empty link to reference on his sad little forum.

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Christos on 11.01.10 at 12:40:23
Well, for the less technical savy people as my self that could have been a very interesting thread if pperror hadn't trolled his way through it.
Oh well...

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by StingRay_ on 11.01.10 at 14:20:13

StingRay_ wrote on 11.01.10 at 10:31:43:
[quote author=454C060 link=1262585334/33#33 date=1262954120]
If you have to disable/restore the OS - *why* can't it support savestates?  Sting tried to explain it but it all sounded like guff :)


Oh and since all I said sounded like guff to you and you still seem to think save states on Amiga are trivial to do, here's a task for you:

Tell me how you would get the value of color register $dff180, you are not allowed to intercept any writes (since that would slow down the code) and you are also not allowed to look at the screen. $dff180 is a write only register. Once you managed that I have more tasks for you.

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Heavy Stylus on 11.01.10 at 15:45:22
Hey come on guys - lets be nice.

I'd imagine that ULS and WHDLoad are built very differently, and although I personally think that save states on an Amiga *are* possible (the Action Replay cart managed this, so why would a software solution not also be possible?), I doubt it is something that could easily be bolted on to the existing WHDLoad code.

Stingray - I sincerely doubt that CJ was meaning to come across as rude.  He can be a bit blunt, but he's one of the nicest people in the scene, so please don't take offence - I read it as a bit of Amiga/Atari banter.

From past experience of working with you, I know that you're an experienced Amiga coder (you hacked the high score routine in Tubular Worlds so it was joystick controlled and saved to the CD32 NVRAM for me).  Maybe if you and the DBug guys collaborated it would be possible to add save state functionality to WHDload, or create a similar soloution as a proof of concept?

Anyway - I'll be in touch soon as I'm planning to make a few more CD32 compilations this year.  I don't suppose you are interested in adding second-button support to Vision's 'Cybernetix'? ;)

(EDIT - After reading the "No Quit Options..." thread, esp. Klaz's comments on the matter, it does sound considerably more than trivial to add save states to the Amiga.  I'm no expert though :P)

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 11.01.10 at 21:01:05

StingRay_ wrote on 11.01.10 at 14:20:13:

StingRay_ wrote on 11.01.10 at 10:31:43:
[quote author=454C060 link=1262585334/33#33 date=1262954120]
If you have to disable/restore the OS - *why* can't it support savestates?  Sting tried to explain it but it all sounded like guff :)


Oh and since all I said sounded like guff to you and you still seem to think save states on Amiga are trivial to do, here's a task for you:

Tell me how you would get the value of color register $dff180, you are not allowed to intercept any writes (since that would slow down the code) and you are also not allowed to look at the screen. $dff180 is a write only register. Once you managed that I have more tasks for you.


Calm down Mr Stingray :)

Right lets look at this one.  I'd assume that most games will set up their pallette in the VBlank to reset any changes made partway down the screen via rasters?

This being the case, you wouldn't actually need to dump the pallette if you intercepted the code at the top of the VBL for the state dump, as on resume, it would set itself up again.

For games that "fire and forget" at the pallette, maybe intercept the setcolour routine and buffer them in a table somewhere ready for the statesave.

What other registers are read-only?

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Phill on 11.01.10 at 22:15:50

CJ wrote on 11.01.10 at 21:01:05:

StingRay_ wrote on 11.01.10 at 14:20:13:

StingRay_ wrote on 11.01.10 at 10:31:43:
[quote author=454C060 link=1262585334/33#33 date=1262954120]
If you have to disable/restore the OS - *why* can't it support savestates?  Sting tried to explain it but it all sounded like guff :)


Oh and since all I said sounded like guff to you and you still seem to think save states on Amiga are trivial to do, here's a task for you:

Tell me how you would get the value of color register $dff180, you are not allowed to intercept any writes (since that would slow down the code) and you are also not allowed to look at the screen. $dff180 is a write only register. Once you managed that I have more tasks for you.


Calm down Mr Stingray :)

Right lets look at this one.  I'd assume that most games will set up their pallette in the VBlank to reset any changes made partway down the screen via rasters?

This being the case, you wouldn't actually need to dump the pallette if you intercepted the code at the top of the VBL for the state dump, as on resume, it would set itself up again.

For games that "fire and forget" at the pallette, maybe intercept the setcolour routine and buffer them in a table somewhere ready for the statesave.

What other registers are read-only?


That would work if it was simply a copperlist... but then again, how are you going to get access to the pointer to $dff080 which is the copper list pointer.... and read only?

Secondly, if its an older game, chances are it didn't use a  copperlist and simply moved the colour values directly into the colour registers... again, all 32 are read only.

As I said before, the only true way to do it without hardware would be to have to individually patch routines in  the game, thats each and every game, thats each and every pallette routine... that now becomes a serious amount of work.

Like I said before, i'm not interested in having to recode my slaves to accept save states when most Amiga games have a save function built in anyway.

I can assure you, doing a save state via a software solution on Amiga is not trivial..... its why it hasn't been done ;)

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 12.01.10 at 00:45:43

Phill wrote on 11.01.10 at 22:15:50:
I can assure you, doing a save state via a software solution on Amiga is not trivial..... its why it hasn't been done



I never said it would be trivial, but it *is* possible. Hell no, why go back and re-do your old stuff? Might be worth considering for the future tho... you could be the first!

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Phill on 12.01.10 at 02:34:57

CJ wrote on 12.01.10 at 00:45:43:

Phill wrote on 11.01.10 at 22:15:50:
I can assure you, doing a save state via a software solution on Amiga is not trivial..... its why it hasn't been done



I never said it would be trivial, but it *is* possible. Hell no, why go back and re-do your old stuff? Might be worth considering for the future tho... you could be the first!


Its only possible if each game has been individually patched to get the game copperlists and palletes, and all the other shit that needs to be extracted from the game to ensure a proper continue of the game, and frankly, I think you utterly underestimate the level of work required to do that.

On a game like Hook for instance, there must be about 8 or 9 separate code files that would have to be patched to ensure that a save state restores the correct copperlists and palletes for whichever piece of code happens to be running.

It seems to me that on the ST this really is a trivial exercise to accomplish, because your ULS code is what does the work, no extra patching is required to get the save state to work.

On Amiga games, its just a whole different ball game.  WHDLoad patchers would have to patch a shitload more just for a save state, when frankly, its just not needed.

I can not code a catch all save state that will work on all games on Amiga, I can only patch 1 game at a time, and for some Amiga games, thats going to be proper messy and extraordinarily tedious and time consuming, time that would be far better spent improving existing slaves and ensuring that any missed games get supported.

I just don't see it happening, and i'm sure as hell not doing it.  ;)

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 12.01.10 at 06:45:53
Anyways I have too much respect for you and Stingray to discuss the merits of if it's worth it or not. Can we get back to the matter at hand?

That pperror, what a twat! And no fair, you didn't keep him.

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by ggn on 12.01.10 at 11:38:27

CJ wrote on 12.01.10 at 06:45:53:
That pperror, what a twat! And no fair, you didn't keep him.


Seconded :P

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by robert2098 on 14.01.10 at 13:34:50

Heavy Stylus wrote on 11.01.10 at 15:45:22:

I'd imagine that ULS and WHDLoad are built very differently, and although I personally think that save states on an Amiga *are* possible (the Action Replay cart managed this, so why would a software solution not also be possible?)


With freezers, the Atari 8bit computers have a very similar problem as the Amiga: write-only registers. After the value is written, you can not read it.

Intercepting writes to a register by software is very difficult. It might be doable for writes using absolute addressing modes, but indirect & indexed addressing modes is more difficult. And what if the write address is generated by *gasp* self modifying code? Or if registers are written by the blitter instead of the CPU? So a software only solution that captures all writes to write-only registers is very very difficult and will slowdown the system. And patching every game so that it does its register writes through an API instead of direct to hardware will be too much work.

The Turbo-Freezer add-on on the Atari 8-bit solved this by having shadow registers on the freezer hardware. So every write to a register was also stored in internal freezer ram. When the game was resumed or restored from disk, it could rewrite the write-only registers from the shadow ram. I suppose the Amiga's action replay works similar.

So making the assumption that if the Action Replay can this then a software only solution can do this, is wrong. A software only solution would be far far more difficult if even possible.

Robert

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Nikolai on 14.01.10 at 15:40:15

CJ wrote on 09.01.10 at 14:23:56:
But neither of them will be big enough to come and post here, where they know their lies and stupidity will take a soul crushing battering :)


I admit that I didn't publish sources:

http://ppera.07x.net/atari/playfhd.html

http://ppera.07x.net/atari/GAMEXdoc.html

I admit that only ggn got STX of Encounter. Before November 2009. Then Ben Gun sent it to me. Now put him on yout blacklist too...

I went on EAB to ask for help to porting WHDLoad on Atari ST.... Or maybe I said there that ULS is it ...

I admit that only proper way to compare speed of 2 SW is: running one on 50MHz 68030 and other on 8MHz 68000 ....

Shall I continue ?

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 14.01.10 at 20:34:47
There's a software-only freezeframe for the XL/XE only series. I wonder how that does it?

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by ggn on 14.01.10 at 20:37:10

Nikolai wrote on 14.01.10 at 15:40:15:
Shall I continue ?


Nope, you're banned.

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 14.01.10 at 20:38:06

Nikolai wrote on 14.01.10 at 15:40:15:
Shall I continue ?


Please don't. Nobody wants to read your shit here. Now kindy fuck off and find another anonymizer, because the one you just used is banned.

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by sh3-rg on 14.01.10 at 21:05:13
haha, poor fucking pcunt ;)

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Phill on 14.01.10 at 22:53:43

Nikolai wrote on 14.01.10 at 15:40:15:

CJ wrote on 09.01.10 at 14:23:56:
But neither of them will be big enough to come and post here, where they know their lies and stupidity will take a soul crushing battering :)


I admit that I didn't publish sources:

http://*censored*.07x.net/atari/playfhd.html

http://*censored*.07x.net/atari/GAMEXdoc.html

I admit that only ggn got STX of Encounter. Before November 2009. Then Ben Gun sent it to me. Now put him on yout blacklist too...

I went on EAB to ask for help to porting WHDLoad on Atari ST.... Or maybe I said there that ULS is it ...

I admit that only proper way to compare speed of 2 SW is: running one on 50MHz 68030 and other on 8MHz 68000 ....

Shall I continue ?


you're a disingenous little prick.

For a start, NO-ONE said anything about 'A500', all of us clearly stated 'AMIGA'.

Thats as daft as saying 'Atari' and then coming to the conclusion you're talking about the XE series!?!?!

If you fucking software loader is so fucking perfect, is better than WHDLoad (yet you ask questions about it?!  If you know all about it, why the fuck ask questions?!?!), and ULS, why the fuck are you asking questions about an Amiga solution???

Why were you asking about Amiga partitioning and hard drives which will give you ZERO help for your program... bearing in mind your software is fucking perfect, so why ask questions?

You also made some rather spurious assertions about WHDLoad, saying your piece of crap software was quicker than WHDLoad, but considering you've never even fucking used it, how the FUCK would you know whether or not your software is quicker?

You're a twat, a twat of the highest order, and is it any wonder that you are not welcome anywhere?

You came onto EAB DELIBERATELY to stir shit up.  By asking questions and then being rude to those that took the time to answer.

Go fuck yourself..... I hope that bridges the language gap you twat!

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 15.01.10 at 04:03:50
Why do I get the feeling you wanted to say that on EAB but thought the moderator might stop you? :D

Now, as a moderator I am forced to comment on this and issue a warning.

"Well done Phill!"

and

"Perror, don't ever come back here again. Consider yourself warned."

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Phill on 15.01.10 at 08:29:59

CJ wrote on 15.01.10 at 04:03:50:
Why do I get the feeling you wanted to say that on EAB but thought the moderator might stop you? :D

Now, as a moderator I am forced to comment on this and issue a warning.

"Well done Phill!"

and

"Perror, don't ever come back here again. Consider yourself warned."


Haha, well on ocassions i have been at liberty to dish out a bit of 'justice' on EAB, but I don't like to do it because EAB is generally a nice place to be, and no-one needs someone who'll just let rip every two seconds, but for Pperror.... i'm making an exception!  ;D

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by robert2098 on 15.01.10 at 11:07:03

CJ wrote on 14.01.10 at 20:34:47:
There's a software-only freezeframe for the XL/XE only series. I wonder how that does it?


Simple, it only works under certain circumstances.

One thing that increases success is the Atari OS. In the zero-page of memory it shadows various hardware registers. Each VBL, those shadow registers are copied by the OS to the hardware registers. So programs that use those shadow registers instead of writing directly to the hardware registers have a higher chance to be restored correctly.

Also when programs rewrite the registers every VBL the write-only registers are no problem. The first 1/50th (or 1/60th for NTSC) of a second you won't notice if things are wrong.

I tried the software freezer. Many games I couldn't even load with the Freezer software loaded. One of the causes could be that the loaded program overwrites the Freezer software. Also if the program circumvents the OS, the freezer hooks will not be active.

One of the programs that did work was the "Molecule Man Maze Editor" and here you see what can go wrong when the game is restored. The editor uses a player (sprite) for giving the available object pane a different background color (reddish), a player for the object selector (white square) and a player for the maze position selector (blue square). Since the display is quite simple it does not write the hardware registers each VBL. The freezer software can't restore the write-only registers and you will see that the restored program has an incorrect display. There is no reddish background color and the white and blue selectors are garbled (the white and blue pixels at the bottom of the screen)

Robert
Molecule_Man__normal_.png ( 3 KB | Downloads )
Molecule_Man__freezer_.png ( 3 KB | Downloads )

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by ggn on 15.01.10 at 16:22:16
Molecule man.... now that was one tough game...

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by ggn on 30.01.10 at 13:59:01
Woo-hoo! He-e-e-e-e's back! They love him! They really really love him!

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=50531

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 31.01.10 at 01:51:43
"You will see shortly!"

He's written an amiga formatter!!!!! Quick, RUN!!!!

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Phill on 04.02.10 at 09:32:37
If he is stupid enough to write any software on Amiga, i'll be ensuring, as i'm sure Stingray will that it never gets used nor adopted.

I see nothing that he could code that doesn't already exist on Amiga.

Re-inventing the wheel as a square is not what is required!  ;)

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by Christos on 04.02.10 at 11:15:35
Well some will. It's the nature of things. He'll just polarize your community as he's done with ours. But on the good news, there is nothing better than pperror to bring a new understanding between Amiga and Atari users. :)
:P

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by simonsunnyboy on 04.02.10 at 18:15:56

Phill wrote on 04.02.10 at 09:32:37:
If he is stupid enough to write any software on Amiga, i'll be ensuring, as i'm sure Stingray will that it never gets used nor adopted.

I see nothing that he could code that doesn't already exist on Amiga.

Re-inventing the wheel as a square is not what is required!  ;)


Who will do so for us Atarians?
Noone needs a harddrive erasing disk imager :P

Title: Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Post by CJ on 04.02.10 at 21:57:09

simonsunnyboy wrote on 04.02.10 at 18:15:56:
Who will do so for us Atarians?


We tried. And we got a bunch of shit and insults from the people at AF for doing so. And then, two years later (because, hell, even morons won't put up with his shit forever, they kicked him out.  Funny that, eh?

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