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mikro
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Populus bug (was:The same name, the different vers
31.01.09 at 23:12:18
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Ah, I see. It's of course good thing, I was just wanted to be sure :)

Speaking about ULS -- what exactly do you guys do with IKBD? When I test some games on my falcon, I can say 50% wont work because they wont work with eiffel interface. Currently I can take Populous as example (yes, I know, not your job but it does use ULS), mouse is totally frozen (even after ctrl+D, i.e. quit to desktop!)
« Last Edit: 01.02.09 at 12:04:03 by ggn »  
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CJ
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Re: The same name, the different version
Reply #1 - 31.01.09 at 23:14:25
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Yep, ULS versions prior to 3 don't work on Falcon/TT as the ULS core was not 68030/MMU friendly - So we've been re-fixing the titles with the new version.
  

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Re: The same name, the different version
Reply #2 - 01.02.09 at 07:40:25
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[quote author=6A6E6C7568070 link=1233434002/2#2 date=1233443538]Speaking about ULS -- what exactly do you guys do with IKBD? When I test some games on my falcon, I can say 50% wont work because they wont work with eiffel interface. Currently I can take Populous as example (yes, I know, not your job but it does use ULS), mouse is totally frozen (even after ctrl+D, i.e. quit to desktop!)[/quote]

Sorry, I'm not familiar with the Eiffel interface, but I know that Populous is using a 'non-standard' mouse mode (i.e. a mode that's different to the one used in GEM, etc.), which is called absolute mouse mode. It's different at ikbd level.
Just a guess, but maybe Eiffel doesn't support it?
  
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Re: The same name, the different version
Reply #3 - 01.02.09 at 09:59:48
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The keyboard has to be taken "out of service" during ULS calls. Basically it is revectored, for the ULS setup, then revectored again during ULS and finally restored at the end. It also needs to be "debounced" several times along the way or it never gets restarted on exit.

I know it screws with PeST on at least 2 titles, Alison has said she has a new firmware which doesnt exhibit the same issues (It's due to packed loss/resume according to her) - Unplugging my PeST and using the ports directly with a proper atari mouse works 100% - I assume the Eifel is bugged in the same way.

  

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Re: The same name, the different version
Reply #4 - 01.02.09 at 10:28:00
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[quote author=73545948594D42514D4B380 link=1233434002/4#4 date=1233474025]Sorry, I'm not familiar with the Eiffel interface, but I know that Populous is using a 'non-standard' mouse mode (i.e. a mode that's different to the one used in GEM, etc.), which is called absolute mouse mode. It's different at ikbd level.
Just a guess, but maybe Eiffel doesn't support it? [/quote]

I think it does, I can play a lot of other titles which use direct IKBD access, absolute or relative mode. I guess the problem lies in that clever IKBD handling ULS does... eiffel is by no means perfect, it's even no surprise more titles don't work (in compare to PeST for example) -- it emulates whole IKBD while PeST is just sending packets to IKDB.

Phew... any chance you made ULS behaving more 'polite' to IKBD ? ;-)
  
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Re: The same name, the different version
Reply #5 - 01.02.09 at 11:56:31
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First off, please note that I'm using a different implementation of ULS - the principles are the same but the code is different in most places, so I can only speak for myself. Smiley

I'd love to find out what goes wrong with the Eiffel attached, but I'd need some assistance from you, Mikro.

- have you tried others of my fixed games that allow quitting to the desktop (like Arkanoid, North & South, etc.)? I have recently changed my ikbd restore code on exit (just using an ikbd reset now). Older fixes are restoring the ikbd step-by-step, by sending various set up bytes to the chip. Provided the mouse works on exit with my older fixes, then the ikbd reset command behaves differently on the Eiffel.

- is there a way to detect the presence of Eiffel by software? Does it need a driver (installing a cookie perhaps)?

- can you try another version of Populous using Backward to run it (perhaps the Automation one or the Bladerunners' version)? I *think* they should run ok with Backward (use the default settings, just set it to 8Mhz - 16Mhz will flicker). If the mouse works, then the issue should be caused by my ULS ikbd handling.

I can't guarantee anything, but I promise to try and help...  Smiley

PS: perhaps a mod could move this stuff to the bugs section?  Smiley
« Last Edit: 01.02.09 at 11:57:20 by Klapauzius »  
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Re: Re: The same name, the different version
Reply #6 - 01.02.09 at 12:03:19
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Done Wink

This Topic was moved here from General [move by] ggn.
« Last Edit: 01.02.09 at 12:05:14 by ggn »  
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Re: Populus bug (was:The same name, the different vers
Reply #7 - 01.02.09 at 12:22:19
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just to add even more confusion, ChrisTOS uses an eifel and populous worked for him... so maybe it's even more "generic" in the type of mouse used?
  

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Re: Populus bug (was:The same name, the different vers
Reply #8 - 01.02.09 at 16:07:32
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Of course I have nothing against some testing :)

[quote author=44636E7F6E7A75667A7C0F0 link=1233443540/5#5 date=1233489391]- have you tried others of my fixed games that allow quitting to the desktop (like Arkanoid, North & South, etc.)? I have recently changed my ikbd restore code on exit (just using an ikbd reset now). Older fixes are restoring the ikbd step-by-step, by sending various set up bytes to the chip. Provided the mouse works on exit with my older fixes, then the ikbd reset command behaves differently on the Eiffel.[/quote]

Yes I did and both Arkanoid and N&S do work OK.

[quote author=44636E7F6E7A75667A7C0F0 link=1233443540/5#5 date=1233489391]- is there a way to detect the presence of Eiffel by software? Does it need a driver (installing a cookie perhaps)?[/quote]

Hmm.. maybe you could ask Didier what he uses in his CT60 boot code (it detects Eiffel along with version used).

[quote author=44636E7F6E7A75667A7C0F0 link=1233443540/5#5 date=1233489391]- can you try another version of Populous using Backward to run it (perhaps the Automation one or the Bladerunners' version)? I *think* they should run ok with Backward (use the default settings, just set it to 8Mhz - 16Mhz will flicker). If the mouse works, then the issue should be caused by my ULS ikbd handling.
[/quote]

Could you provide me the version you're talking about? Btw I looked into Eiffel docs, of course absolute mode is support, in fact, it's supported nearly everything.

Btw do you know which version of Eiffel Christos uses?

Btw #2, as I tested your games, I came with following results (joy connected as Joy #1 in Eiffel):

- Overlander: Joy is OK but fire doesn't work. I have to use 'fire' on mouse (left button)

- Hotshot: fire button ignored (mouse doesn't help here)

- Goldrunner: the same

- Cybernoid: as Overlander but right mouse buttons helps here

- Populous: sometimes it does work but only for a while. The typical symptom is absence of sampled music. But after some time (10s) it's frozen again

Bad news is my Eiffel has some health problems and mouse stopped to move :) So I'm unable to make more tests until I fix this issue (grrrr...).
  
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Re: Populus bug (was:The same name, the different vers
Reply #9 - 01.02.09 at 16:16:34
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I got the eiffel from AGO. Haven't got a clue as to what version etc it is. Only that the joystick ports didn't work and when I tried to make a firmware update it died.
There is I think a solution to your problem. If you plug an original atari mouse in the joystick port it should work as planned.
  
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Re: Populus bug (was:The same name, the different vers
Reply #10 - 01.02.09 at 18:19:00
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OK, I managed to "fix" that issue. The problem was ... yes, I'm aware of the fact I'm going to look as real lamer ;) ... broken mouse. Until now I didn't believe optical mouse can *die* only by daily using. Great. So as soon as I connected usb2ps/2 + usb mouse into eiffel, populous begins to work fine.

EDIT: But the rest (fire button vs mouse button) remains. If you want some dbug example -- Magic Land Dizzy. Fire doesn't work but mouse button does...
« Last Edit: 01.02.09 at 18:22:14 by mikro »  
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Re: Populus bug (was:The same name, the different vers
Reply #11 - 02.02.09 at 02:33:15
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Hi Mikro,

well, I'm glad you found a solution to the problem with Populous. Wink

Regarding the joystick fire button issue, which still remains:

Easiest way to check if it's ULS causing the issue would be to take a 'classic' crack from one of the games in question and see if you get the same results with it or not.

The behaviour you mention (joystick directions work, but fire button doesn't) is quite hard to achieve at all with a regular ACIA chip. Only thing I can think of is that, for some reason, Eiffel enters one of the more exotic joystick modes (Set Fire Button Monitoring, $18). Whether this is caused by my code, by the game's code, or if lt's something else entirely I don't know.

Anyway, let's take Cybernoid for testing, as it's definitely using bog standard joystick handling. It also was one of my earliest Falcon/HD fixes, and looking at my loader code again, there's nothing too adventurous done to the ikbd in it.  Smiley

- Can you please download this non-ULSed version of Cybernoid:
http://www.klapauzius.net/Misc/CYBRTEST.zip

- please put the unpacked files on a floppy disk on your Falcon and boot your machine holding down ALTERNATE to skip the HD driver loading.

- run it from floppy and see if the joystick button works. It will crash once you have finished level 1 as it's not Falcon fixed, but it should do fine for testing the joystick.

We'll take it from there... Smiley
  
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