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 25 Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me! (Read 6013 times)
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Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Reply #60 - 10.01.10 at 15:57:12
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Well, I already announced that I'd fix HS, it just slipped my mind Smiley
  
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CJ
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Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Reply #61 - 10.01.10 at 20:37:44
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Exactly... he's made a video about something we'd been 100% honest about but not got around to fixing yet....

...whilst still pretending his Armor Geddon and Battle for Britain and everythign else he's butchered are all ok ROFL.
  

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Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Reply #62 - 11.01.10 at 10:31:43
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CJ wrote on 08.01.10 at 12:35:20:
If you have to disable/restore the OS - *why* can't it support savestates?  Sting tried to explain it but it all sounded like guff Smiley


Thanks... Next time I guess I won't spend time explaining that again... Read only custom registers... Anyway, that's all that needs to be said about that.
  
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Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Reply #63 - 11.01.10 at 11:26:54
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Wow.  I missed the death of this EAB thread, and the one that followed it.  Must of got serious for it to be completely deleted!

Does anyone have a copy of what happened after I posted?  Or can someone fill me in with how Pppppwanker replied to my (pretty reasonable IIRC) posts?
  

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Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Reply #64 - 11.01.10 at 12:00:26
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what they've deleted it!!!

not just locked it?

shw
  
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Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Reply #65 - 11.01.10 at 12:03:02
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I know!  Does MugUK have an amiga alterego?
  

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Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Reply #66 - 11.01.10 at 12:21:59
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Shw wrote on 11.01.10 at 12:00:26:
what they've deleted it!!!

not just locked it?

shw


I asked for it to be deleted, because the prick was linking to it from his site and lording it over people.  Of course, by him requesting the mods lock the thread, meant that a few people couldn't get in legitimate replies to rubbish his claims.

So rather that thread full of bollocks be allowed to stand, I asked for it to dissapear, no Pperror only has an empty link to reference on his sad little forum.
  
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Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Reply #67 - 11.01.10 at 12:40:23
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Well, for the less technical savy people as my self that could have been a very interesting thread if pperror hadn't trolled his way through it.
Oh well...
  
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Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Reply #68 - 11.01.10 at 14:20:13
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StingRay_ wrote on 11.01.10 at 10:31:43:
[quote author=454C060 link=1262585334/33#33 date=1262954120]
If you have to disable/restore the OS - *why* can't it support savestates?  Sting tried to explain it but it all sounded like guff Smiley


Oh and since all I said sounded like guff to you and you still seem to think save states on Amiga are trivial to do, here's a task for you:

Tell me how you would get the value of color register $dff180, you are not allowed to intercept any writes (since that would slow down the code) and you are also not allowed to look at the screen. $dff180 is a write only register. Once you managed that I have more tasks for you.
  
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Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Reply #69 - 11.01.10 at 15:45:22
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Hey come on guys - lets be nice.

I'd imagine that ULS and WHDLoad are built very differently, and although I personally think that save states on an Amiga *are* possible (the Action Replay cart managed this, so why would a software solution not also be possible?), I doubt it is something that could easily be bolted on to the existing WHDLoad code.

Stingray - I sincerely doubt that CJ was meaning to come across as rude.  He can be a bit blunt, but he's one of the nicest people in the scene, so please don't take offence - I read it as a bit of Amiga/Atari banter.

From past experience of working with you, I know that you're an experienced Amiga coder (you hacked the high score routine in Tubular Worlds so it was joystick controlled and saved to the CD32 NVRAM for me).  Maybe if you and the DBug guys collaborated it would be possible to add save state functionality to WHDload, or create a similar soloution as a proof of concept?

Anyway - I'll be in touch soon as I'm planning to make a few more CD32 compilations this year.  I don't suppose you are interested in adding second-button support to Vision's 'Cybernetix'? Wink

(EDIT - After reading the "No Quit Options..." thread, esp. Klaz's comments on the matter, it does sound considerably more than trivial to add save states to the Amiga.  I'm no expert though Tongue)
« Last Edit: 11.01.10 at 16:16:27 by Heavy Stylus »  

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Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Reply #70 - 11.01.10 at 21:01:05
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StingRay_ wrote on 11.01.10 at 14:20:13:
StingRay_ wrote on 11.01.10 at 10:31:43:
[quote author=454C060 link=1262585334/33#33 date=1262954120]
If you have to disable/restore the OS - *why* can't it support savestates?  Sting tried to explain it but it all sounded like guff Smiley


Oh and since all I said sounded like guff to you and you still seem to think save states on Amiga are trivial to do, here's a task for you:

Tell me how you would get the value of color register $dff180, you are not allowed to intercept any writes (since that would slow down the code) and you are also not allowed to look at the screen. $dff180 is a write only register. Once you managed that I have more tasks for you.


Calm down Mr Stingray Smiley

Right lets look at this one.  I'd assume that most games will set up their pallette in the VBlank to reset any changes made partway down the screen via rasters?

This being the case, you wouldn't actually need to dump the pallette if you intercepted the code at the top of the VBL for the state dump, as on resume, it would set itself up again.

For games that "fire and forget" at the pallette, maybe intercept the setcolour routine and buffer them in a table somewhere ready for the statesave.

What other registers are read-only?
  

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Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Reply #71 - 11.01.10 at 22:15:50
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CJ wrote on 11.01.10 at 21:01:05:
StingRay_ wrote on 11.01.10 at 14:20:13:
StingRay_ wrote on 11.01.10 at 10:31:43:
[quote author=454C060 link=1262585334/33#33 date=1262954120]
If you have to disable/restore the OS - *why* can't it support savestates?  Sting tried to explain it but it all sounded like guff Smiley


Oh and since all I said sounded like guff to you and you still seem to think save states on Amiga are trivial to do, here's a task for you:

Tell me how you would get the value of color register $dff180, you are not allowed to intercept any writes (since that would slow down the code) and you are also not allowed to look at the screen. $dff180 is a write only register. Once you managed that I have more tasks for you.


Calm down Mr Stingray Smiley

Right lets look at this one.  I'd assume that most games will set up their pallette in the VBlank to reset any changes made partway down the screen via rasters?

This being the case, you wouldn't actually need to dump the pallette if you intercepted the code at the top of the VBL for the state dump, as on resume, it would set itself up again.

For games that "fire and forget" at the pallette, maybe intercept the setcolour routine and buffer them in a table somewhere ready for the statesave.

What other registers are read-only?


That would work if it was simply a copperlist... but then again, how are you going to get access to the pointer to $dff080 which is the copper list pointer.... and read only?

Secondly, if its an older game, chances are it didn't use a  copperlist and simply moved the colour values directly into the colour registers... again, all 32 are read only.

As I said before, the only true way to do it without hardware would be to have to individually patch routines in  the game, thats each and every game, thats each and every pallette routine... that now becomes a serious amount of work.

Like I said before, i'm not interested in having to recode my slaves to accept save states when most Amiga games have a save function built in anyway.

I can assure you, doing a save state via a software solution on Amiga is not trivial..... its why it hasn't been done Wink
  
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Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Reply #72 - 12.01.10 at 00:45:43
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Phill wrote on 11.01.10 at 22:15:50:
I can assure you, doing a save state via a software solution on Amiga is not trivial..... its why it hasn't been done



I never said it would be trivial, but it *is* possible. Hell no, why go back and re-do your old stuff? Might be worth considering for the future tho... you could be the first!
  

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Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Reply #73 - 12.01.10 at 02:34:57
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CJ wrote on 12.01.10 at 00:45:43:
Phill wrote on 11.01.10 at 22:15:50:
I can assure you, doing a save state via a software solution on Amiga is not trivial..... its why it hasn't been done



I never said it would be trivial, but it *is* possible. Hell no, why go back and re-do your old stuff? Might be worth considering for the future tho... you could be the first!


Its only possible if each game has been individually patched to get the game copperlists and palletes, and all the other shit that needs to be extracted from the game to ensure a proper continue of the game, and frankly, I think you utterly underestimate the level of work required to do that.

On a game like Hook for instance, there must be about 8 or 9 separate code files that would have to be patched to ensure that a save state restores the correct copperlists and palletes for whichever piece of code happens to be running.

It seems to me that on the ST this really is a trivial exercise to accomplish, because your ULS code is what does the work, no extra patching is required to get the save state to work.

On Amiga games, its just a whole different ball game.  WHDLoad patchers would have to patch a shitload more just for a save state, when frankly, its just not needed.

I can not code a catch all save state that will work on all games on Amiga, I can only patch 1 game at a time, and for some Amiga games, thats going to be proper messy and extraordinarily tedious and time consuming, time that would be far better spent improving existing slaves and ensuring that any missed games get supported.

I just don't see it happening, and i'm sure as hell not doing it.  Wink
  
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Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Reply #74 - 12.01.10 at 06:45:53
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Anyways I have too much respect for you and Stingray to discuss the merits of if it's worth it or not. Can we get back to the matter at hand?

That pperror, what a twat! And no fair, you didn't keep him.
  

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Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Reply #75 - 12.01.10 at 11:38:27
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CJ wrote on 12.01.10 at 06:45:53:
That pperror, what a twat! And no fair, you didn't keep him.


Seconded Tongue
  
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Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Reply #76 - 14.01.10 at 13:34:50
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Heavy Stylus wrote on 11.01.10 at 15:45:22:
I'd imagine that ULS and WHDLoad are built very differently, and although I personally think that save states on an Amiga *are* possible (the Action Replay cart managed this, so why would a software solution not also be possible?)


With freezers, the Atari 8bit computers have a very similar problem as the Amiga: write-only registers. After the value is written, you can not read it.

Intercepting writes to a register by software is very difficult. It might be doable for writes using absolute addressing modes, but indirect & indexed addressing modes is more difficult. And what if the write address is generated by *gasp* self modifying code? Or if registers are written by the blitter instead of the CPU? So a software only solution that captures all writes to write-only registers is very very difficult and will slowdown the system. And patching every game so that it does its register writes through an API instead of direct to hardware will be too much work.

The Turbo-Freezer add-on on the Atari 8-bit solved this by having shadow registers on the freezer hardware. So every write to a register was also stored in internal freezer ram. When the game was resumed or restored from disk, it could rewrite the write-only registers from the shadow ram. I suppose the Amiga's action replay works similar.

So making the assumption that if the Action Replay can this then a software only solution can do this, is wrong. A software only solution would be far far more difficult if even possible.

Robert
  

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Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Reply #77 - 14.01.10 at 15:40:15
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CJ wrote on 09.01.10 at 14:23:56:
But neither of them will be big enough to come and post here, where they know their lies and stupidity will take a soul crushing battering Smiley


I admit that I didn't publish sources:

http://ppera.07x.net/atari/playfhd.html

http://ppera.07x.net/atari/GAMEXdoc.html

I admit that only ggn got STX of Encounter. Before November 2009. Then Ben Gun sent it to me. Now put him on yout blacklist too...

I went on EAB to ask for help to porting WHDLoad on Atari ST.... Or maybe I said there that ULS is it ...

I admit that only proper way to compare speed of 2 SW is: running one on 50MHz 68030 and other on 8MHz 68000 ....

Shall I continue ?
  
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Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Reply #78 - 14.01.10 at 20:34:47
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There's a software-only freezeframe for the XL/XE only series. I wonder how that does it?
  

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Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Reply #79 - 14.01.10 at 20:37:10
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Nikolai wrote on 14.01.10 at 15:40:15:
Shall I continue ?


Nope, you're banned.
  
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Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Reply #80 - 14.01.10 at 20:38:06
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Nikolai wrote on 14.01.10 at 15:40:15:
Shall I continue ?


Please don't. Nobody wants to read your shit here. Now kindy fuck off and find another anonymizer, because the one you just used is banned.
  

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Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Reply #81 - 14.01.10 at 21:05:13
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haha, poor fucking pcunt Wink
  

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Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Reply #82 - 14.01.10 at 22:53:43
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Nikolai wrote on 14.01.10 at 15:40:15:
CJ wrote on 09.01.10 at 14:23:56:
But neither of them will be big enough to come and post here, where they know their lies and stupidity will take a soul crushing battering Smiley


I admit that I didn't publish sources:

http://*censored*.07x.net/atari/playfhd.html

http://*censored*.07x.net/atari/GAMEXdoc.html

I admit that only ggn got STX of Encounter. Before November 2009. Then Ben Gun sent it to me. Now put him on yout blacklist too...

I went on EAB to ask for help to porting WHDLoad on Atari ST.... Or maybe I said there that ULS is it ...

I admit that only proper way to compare speed of 2 SW is: running one on 50MHz 68030 and other on 8MHz 68000 ....

Shall I continue ?


you're a disingenous little prick.

For a start, NO-ONE said anything about 'A500', all of us clearly stated 'AMIGA'.

Thats as daft as saying 'Atari' and then coming to the conclusion you're talking about the XE series!?!?!

If you fucking software loader is so fucking perfect, is better than WHDLoad (yet you ask questions about it?!  If you know all about it, why the fuck ask questions?!?!), and ULS, why the fuck are you asking questions about an Amiga solution???

Why were you asking about Amiga partitioning and hard drives which will give you ZERO help for your program... bearing in mind your software is fucking perfect, so why ask questions?

You also made some rather spurious assertions about WHDLoad, saying your piece of crap software was quicker than WHDLoad, but considering you've never even fucking used it, how the FUCK would you know whether or not your software is quicker?

You're a twat, a twat of the highest order, and is it any wonder that you are not welcome anywhere?

You came onto EAB DELIBERATELY to stir shit up.  By asking questions and then being rude to those that took the time to answer.

Go fuck yourself..... I hope that bridges the language gap you twat!
  
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Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Reply #83 - 15.01.10 at 04:03:50
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Why do I get the feeling you wanted to say that on EAB but thought the moderator might stop you? Cheesy

Now, as a moderator I am forced to comment on this and issue a warning.

"Well done Phill!"

and

"Perror, don't ever come back here again. Consider yourself warned."
« Last Edit: 15.01.10 at 04:12:18 by CJ »  

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Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Reply #84 - 15.01.10 at 08:29:59
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CJ wrote on 15.01.10 at 04:03:50:
Why do I get the feeling you wanted to say that on EAB but thought the moderator might stop you? Cheesy

Now, as a moderator I am forced to comment on this and issue a warning.

"Well done Phill!"

and

"Perror, don't ever come back here again. Consider yourself warned."


Haha, well on ocassions i have been at liberty to dish out a bit of 'justice' on EAB, but I don't like to do it because EAB is generally a nice place to be, and no-one needs someone who'll just let rip every two seconds, but for Pperror.... i'm making an exception!  Grin
  
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Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Reply #85 - 15.01.10 at 11:07:03
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CJ wrote on 14.01.10 at 20:34:47:
There's a software-only freezeframe for the XL/XE only series. I wonder how that does it?


Simple, it only works under certain circumstances.

One thing that increases success is the Atari OS. In the zero-page of memory it shadows various hardware registers. Each VBL, those shadow registers are copied by the OS to the hardware registers. So programs that use those shadow registers instead of writing directly to the hardware registers have a higher chance to be restored correctly.

Also when programs rewrite the registers every VBL the write-only registers are no problem. The first 1/50th (or 1/60th for NTSC) of a second you won't notice if things are wrong.

I tried the software freezer. Many games I couldn't even load with the Freezer software loaded. One of the causes could be that the loaded program overwrites the Freezer software. Also if the program circumvents the OS, the freezer hooks will not be active.

One of the programs that did work was the "Molecule Man Maze Editor" and here you see what can go wrong when the game is restored. The editor uses a player (sprite) for giving the available object pane a different background color (reddish), a player for the object selector (white square) and a player for the maze position selector (blue square). Since the display is quite simple it does not write the hardware registers each VBL. The freezer software can't restore the write-only registers and you will see that the restored program has an incorrect display. There is no reddish background color and the white and blue selectors are garbled (the white and blue pixels at the bottom of the screen)

Robert
  

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Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Reply #86 - 15.01.10 at 16:22:16
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Molecule man.... now that was one tough game...
  
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Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Reply #87 - 30.01.10 at 13:59:01
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Woo-hoo! He-e-e-e-e's back! They love him! They really really love him!

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=50531
« Last Edit: 30.01.10 at 13:59:30 by ggn »  
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Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Reply #88 - 31.01.10 at 01:51:43
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"You will see shortly!"

He's written an amiga formatter!!!!! Quick, RUN!!!!
  

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Re: Wow, ULS has no pre-cache - thats news to me!
Reply #89 - 04.02.10 at 09:32:37
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If he is stupid enough to write any software on Amiga, i'll be ensuring, as i'm sure Stingray will that it never gets used nor adopted.

I see nothing that he could code that doesn't already exist on Amiga.

Re-inventing the wheel as a square is not what is required!  Wink
  
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